The Unique Self and Reincarnation with Michael Murphy and Marc Gafni. Original Transcript Michael Murphy: Do you agree the same with this kind of empirical inquiry as in prayer, same process. You get a group of people and you’re really trying to get at this, by God you start to find things out.
Marc Gafni: Yeah.
Michael Murphy: And it’s such a thrill.
Marc Gafni: And prayer is another area where we’ve dense enormous research in the last 25 years.
Michael Murphy: Yeah, but prayer works but it’s why, you know this is… well I don’t want to do the “why” question because that can’t be answered. I mean that’s the way it is. I’m with both the Buddha and it’s principles. The how, let’s just do it but you pray and it works and it’s because the divine in us which is down here and ignorance still and far away and it calls and something is given. So as in prayer I want to say, as in Bhakti Yoga, so in Yada Yoga let’s call this, a knowledge inquiry. And this gang with very little resources is suddenly “Wooohhm” and I’ve been through these “Woohhms” and when they come, it’s they come. I mean it is really, we’ve got something big going here, this gang here.
Marc Gafni: It’s big, no it’s big.
Michael Murphy: It really is, you may not have heard about it but it is. Are you still asleep?
Marc Gafni: He’s good.
Guy: I’m wide awake.
Michael Murphy: Oh you’re wide awake? Good.
Marc Gafni: He’s good, he’s good, you know, and Empiricism becomes, you know,the new ground and I think that’s how it started, Michael. It started, you know, theologies of prayer develop later. You know prayer started because it worked. You know, and if you kind of get rid of all the theology for a second, and just say “Marc’s talking to Michael.” So I hear Michael talking. How do I hear Michael talking? Well, my ears. But my ears are just physical but my ears are the physical expressions of intelligence. So, physical expressions of intelligence hear Michael talking. So far pretty simple. Well am I the only intelligent being in the cosmos, which has physical apparatus? Probably not. So if Marc can hear Michael talking, then the cosmos, which has at least 2 essential properties, being and intelligence. So if Marc can hear Michael talking, well why wouldn’t the cosmos be able to hear Michael talking? And, It’s kind of, It’s simple, you know, It’s elegant.
Michael Murphy: That’s good, I like that. That’s good.
Marc Gafni: Right, and you know you kind of strip away you know a lot of the theology and the books and the books and the books and, and I remember I was in Manitoba, Canada about a year ago and someone asked about prayer. And kind of all of my old rabbi training you know kind of came up and it was all the books about prayer and then I just realized it’s just as simple as us hearing each other talking. You know it’s kind of the intelligence…
Michael Murphy: But how do you deal with this one, and this is reading Rhama crucially, you know you prayer you know I’m not by my dominant feature you know is not as a Bhakti yoga but I pray a lot, I really do. You know but I said a lot of, you know I’ve been informed a lot by Armin Do you know stop thinking and just go into that empty state and more the Buddhist fanatic or whatever you want to call it. So you start praying, and you call, let’s say you’ve been at it for 2 hours and nothing is happening, you know, and so you get discouraged. So people ask Rhama Christians, the students ask Rhama christian, they said “You mean you’ve been praying for 2 hours and you haven’t seen God yet?” You know and he says “Look at people who cry for years for money, and they… but some of them keep working for decades and they make a lot of money, but if you sit there and just work for 2 hours you’re not going to get rich.” And he says ” And people can go all out but if you says “I’ve been working hard for 2 hours” it wouldn’t mean anything. OK, so the same in the life of prayer and those who and then it comes and it isn’t, you know, that far away
Marc Gafni: No, it’s not that far away.
Michael Murphy: And then when it happens it is so reliable and it is so amazing, it’s just it’s amazing. But you’ve got to try more than 2 hours.
Marc Gafni: More than 2 hours.
Michael Murphy: You know but in any realm of life you know I ache to get that woman. You know, 2 hours? That won’t do it. No, no, I mean it’s no, you, you, I mean you’ve got to, you’ve got to woo her, you’ve got to, you know if she’s as good as you think she is, you know. It could work the other way of course.
Marc Gafni: I’ll tell you a story that comes to mind, Michael. And I was actually talking to our colleague, our friend, Ken, Ken Wilbur. And you know Ken had really… Ken’s done such a great job in all things he’s done such a great job in. And we were kind of stuck in an argument about this, this prayer thing you know and Ken being kind of a good Buddhist…
Michael Murphy: Really? I’ve never talked to him about prayer. Does he pray?
Marc Gafni: Right you know, Well he… prayer wasn’t his first way in. You know?
Michael Murphy: No, I’ve never heard… It hasn’t appeared in his books either.
Marc Gafni: Well actually, and Ken you’re watching so we’re saying hi. You know actually and like up from Eden, he kind of dismissed his prayer, you know kind of as a dogma, because he identifies prayer with the kind of, you know, kind of cosmic vending machine God, you know and which kind of God’s a cosmic vending machine, and a particular religion says we own the machine, and we also happen to have the coins to give you to put in. So when you get that kind of vision of it, it’s kind of hard to play. But you know I told Ken a story and it just kind of came to mind right now, and it’s one of my favorite stories that just, it just kind of blows me away and you can actually get almost like you know whenever you hear it there’s one great master and non-dual master named Labi Isaac of Berdichev and he would love to do blessings. So blessings in Hebrew are different, you know blessed are you God King of the world and its, its a long text. So he would start and he would go “Blessed are you… YOU… YOU….YOU!!” and he would faint in ecstasy. He couldn’t get passed “you” because for this master, blessed are you, just the you, you know and I said to Ken and Ken just kind of, it just moved him and he would begin to shift in that conversation, you don’t faint in ecstasy from a dogma. Right, dogmas don’t make you faint in ecstasy. You know you, you know, is the living presence you know which is like awareness like you know you ask a good Buddhist “How do you know about awareness?” you’ll say “Is it a dogma?” and they’ll say “No, it’s a realization.” So the second person, prayer, you know is a realization. And it’s a realization just like I am is. Just like Ottman is Brahman is a realization so you is a realization and it’s got a taste. And it takes you know one time and two times then three times and eventually you actually feel that you’re being held in the presence even as you are the presence. Right, you know there’s this kind of strange, you know paradox, where you kind of feel like you know every place I fall, I fall into the arms of the beloved you know and yet I’m part of the beloved at the same time you know and it’s not a kind of logical structure, you know it’s a roomy structure it’s a Kahbere structure, it’s a Hafeez structure, it’s a…
Michael Murphy: See this is separation, not as the source of ignorance or pain, but separation is the source of the supreme ecstasy and you know, it’s, we have to give separation a good name and all of us who have ever been in love don’t need to be, we know. But then so we suffer from failed love affairs and so forth, so then we over generalize this, but now you can overcome it. I mean there’s no greater line than roomies for ages I knocked at my beloved’s door and when at last it opened, I realized I was knocking from the inside.
Marc Gafni: Right, from the inside.
About Author: Marc Gafni is an American bestselling author, television host, speaker, and spiritual artist. Gafni now well known as a practitioner of world spirituality based on integral principles. To learn more about him visit:
http://www.marcgafni.com/ The Center for Integral Wisdom is the renamed Center for World Spirituality, a non-profit organization founded in 2010 by Marc Gafni. More details here: http://www.ievolve.org/